Perhaps the most surprising thing about Better Call Saul other than the fact that many Breaking Bad fans have said they prefer the spinoff, and even the ones who disagree dont find that a ludicrous notion is how its become beloved for the exact opposite reason that its creators expected it to be.
Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould and for that matter, all of us at home assumed the fun of the prequel would be in spending more time with Bob Odenkirk in the role of Walter Whites shyster lawyer Saul Goodman; it was a way for the show to fill in blanks in the Heisenberg-verse. Instead, most of what makes the show great involves the man he used to be: slick but largely well-meaning lawyer Jimmy McGill, who has the depth and emotional resonance that Saul lacks. The longer we spend with this version of the character which he still is at the start of Season Four, premiering on August 6th the less we want to see of Goodman or even Walt himself.
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I recently spoke with Gilligan about those early days when he and Gould who became sole showrunner this year while Gilligan largely focused on developing other ideas had to wonder if theyd made a terrible mistake. He also talked about the painful process of figuring out how Saul could work, the gradual insertion of other Breaking Bad characters into the spinoff and a lot more. (With occasional kibitzing from Gould and some other writers, since Gilligan will be the first to tell you that he has a terrible memory for detail.)
It took you and Peter a while to figure out what the show was. At what point did you say to yourselves, Wait a minute, this is actually good? This isnt just a folly that weve done, to keep everyone together?
We would never put anything on that we had worked less than 100 percent on. Having said that, I didnt know it would come together. I knew it would be the product of a lot of hard work and a lot of talent, in front of and behind the camera. I thought at worst, we would create something that was admirable and a perfectly legitimate attempt at a show. But I didnt realize it would be as successful as it is in terms of a fully jelled world, a full totality of creation [one] that is as satisfying as it is.
When we first started concocting the idea of doing a spinoff, we literally thought itd be a half-hour show. Itd be something akin toDr Katz,where its basically Saul Goodman in his crazy office with the styrofoam columns and hes visited every week by a different stand-up comic. It was basically, I guess, legal problems. We talked about that for a day or two. And then Peter Gould and I realized, we dont know anything about the half-hour idiom. And then we thought, okay, well, so its an hour but its going to be a really funny hour. I said, Breaking Bad is about 25-percenthumor, 75-percent drama and maybe this will be the reverse of that. Well this thing, especially in Season Four, is every bit as dramatic asBreaking Badever was. I just didnt see any of that coming. I didnt know how good it would all be. I reallydidnt(*).
(*) Peter Gould recalls that after theDr. Katzidea was abandoned, they moved on to a version where Saul Goodman was sort of a Jerry Maguire for criminals, assembling teams for jobs and getting involved in their personal lives, with his brother Chuck as a Mycroft Holmes-esque advisor for these schemes.
Its amazing how hard it was to get it right.
The question we shouldve ask ourselves from the beginning; Is Saul Goodman an interesting enough character to build a show around? And the truth is, we came to the conclusion, after we already had the deal in hand [and] AMC and Sony had already put up the money, I dont think we have a show here, because I dont think we have a character who could support a show. Hes a great flavoring, hes a wonderful saffron that you sprinkle on yourRisotto. But you dont want to eat a bowl full of saffron, you gotta have the rice, you know? You gotta have the substance.
And it dawned on us that this character seemed so comfortable in his own skin. Peter and I do not possess those kinds of personalities. We thought, Regardless how much comedy is in it, how do you find drama in a guy whos basically okay with himself? So then we thought, Well, who was he before he was Saul Goodman?
Because the show is namedBetter Call Saul, we thought that we had to get to this guy quick or else people will accuse us of false advertising a bait and switch. Then lo and behold, season after season went by and it dawned on us, we dont want to get to Saul Goodman and thats the tragedy.
If we had thought all of this from the get-go, that would have made us very smart.But as it turns out, were very plodding and dumb, and it takes forever to figure this stuff out. Which is why were perfectly matched for a TV schedule versus a movie schedule, because you got to get it right the first time when youre writing a movie. It took us forever to get it right.
Its funny, because the most frustrated Ive ever heard you when describing the process of doing something onBreaking Badis the machine gun in the trunk
Oh God, yeah. So stupid.
And youve created a whole show that is basically that. How much of a headache is that for you guys?
Endless, endless headaches. The really dumb thing is that youre right: The machine gun was so painful, and then we set out to do an entire show where we got to backfill and everything. The stupidest thing of all is that, Id forgotten all the lessons of the machine gun. We actually said to one another, Well, we know where this is going, so this is going to be easier. [Laughs] Ignorance is bliss.
And in fact, we dont know where it ends up and thank goodness for that. Because we have a whole potential world of storytelling with Gene, Jimmy McGill/Saul Goodmans third alter ego in Omaha, Nebraska. Who knows how long that could go on? Thats some great stuff potentially. Were happy for that, because otherwise, itd be a real bummer if Saul had died at the end ofBreaking Bad, cause then we really would be doing nothing but backfilling.
Have there been any specific times you can think of where, in the course of making this show, you had an idea; youre starting to do it; and then [writers] Tom Schnauz or Genn Hutchison or somebody says, you cant do that because it contradicts this thing you did onBreaking Bad?
Im sure that its happened many times. Im trying to think of an exact example.(*)
(*) I checked with Breaking Bad vets Schnauz and Hutchison, and they said it mostly comes up involving characters who exist on Saul and met for the first time on Breaking Bad. Ted Beneke, for instance, was briefly considered as someone Jimmy could have tried to make a commercial for last season then everyone remembered that Saul Goodman was part of the scam involving Teds Aunt Birgid.
As fans started to embrace the show, one of my commenters said something like, They should show Jimmy or Kim reading the newspaper, and theres a story: Local high school chemistry teacher dies of cancer.' Just to free you from the burden and say that this is a different reality altogether.
What a neat idea. I love that idea. Wow. Noah Hawley said to Peter Gould one time, I just think we should just never have him turn into Saul Goodman. Thats a great way to do it, too. But you know, life is intractable, pretty much always. Each one of us has an expiration date and real life doesnt allow for much in the way of negotiating. We figured we have to be truthful in terms of this show. There are days where wed love to actually make use of an idea like that. But theres something to be said for playing the cards youve been dealt or in this case, playing the cards youve dealt to yourself.
Going in, did you expect to be featuring as manyBreaking Badcharacters as you have? Did you assume at some point we would get to Gus, for instance?
We always assumed wed get to Gus I think we thought we might get to him quicker. Just speaking for myself and no one else: I thought wed have gotten to Walt or Jesse by this point, as sort of the first fan of both shows. Im greedy to see all of these characters. I thought we would see plenty ofBreaking Badcharacters. I didnt know wed dig as deep for some of them, as we have.
Weve gotten a great deal of satisfaction from seeing, for instance, that the real estate agent who shows Mike and [his] daughter the new house, was a real estate agent inBreaking Bad,who had the run-in with Marie. Little shout-outs like that, we love for two reasons. We love those Easter eggs for the reallyastute students ofBreaking Bad. And we also know that that young woman who was such a wonderful actress and so much fun to work with onBreaking Bad. We love when someone did a great job for us on a previous show, to pay em back by having them on the new show. Which is not to say that well get every single one of those folks, even though wed love to. Theres probably plenty well never get to, just for lack of time, lack of episodes but its fun to be able to do that.
When you say you expected to get to Walt and Jesse by now, do you mean the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead approach to the Breaking Bad years? Or just that you would have seen what they were up to in this time period?
I thought we would have touched base with them already. But having said that, it makes perfect sense that we havent yet touched base with them. Just being in the writers room, you realize that theres a lot to do before that happens if and when it does happen. I dont even want to promise that it will. Its like what I was saying a minute ago: You play the play the cards that youve dealt yourself. Theres no point in cheating in solitaire. Thats a weird analogy, but ultimately, a pretty good one. You can cheat in solitaire, but theres nothing satisfying about cheating in solitaire.
And the analogy holds when you get to the writers room withBetter Call Saul. You can change the characters history,you can have it be that Walter White never comes into it, but it wouldnt ultimately be satisfying. And when you play the cards out correctly and you see that its time to bring Walter White in, for instance, its a wonderfully satisfying moment. If you force it, if you cheat the cards, if you bring them in just because folks are demanding it or expecting it, and you kind of bullshit the characters way into the show, its just not going to satisfy anybody. I believe that in my heart.
We both wanted it to not beAfterM*A*S*H. Thats about as high as we had set our sights: We wanted to not embarrass ourselves.
Has the show evolved and become good enough to the point where it doesnt need Walter White?
Maybe. I mean, it would be satisfying to see Walt. Not to see him shoehorned in that would not satisfy me. But to see the character properly arrive at a nexus point withBetter Call Saul. Thatd be wonderful [though] its very possible it wont happen if it doesnt feel properly arrived at. And yes, I believe thatBetter Call Saulis so much its own creation now, its own thing. It absolutely stands on its own.
Were enjoying this overlap betweenBreaking BadandBetter Call Saul that werecontinuing to arrive at. But theres a version of the show where you dont see it asBreaking Badstuff at all. Where, for instance, we leave out Mike Ehrmantraut, because he barely ever interacts with Jimmy McGill anymore. We could just stick with the Jimmy McGill story: him, Kim Wexler, Howard Hamlin, all of that stuff. We could have a perfectly satisfying show. But we feel like were giving the fans two shows for the price of one. It really does feel like two TV shows in one now.
WhenBreaking Badwas coming to an end, this was already in the works to some degree. But was there a part of you thinking, Alright, this show is ending. This is the best thing Ive ever done it, its the best thing I will ever do, my career haspeaked. What do I do now?
Thats exactly why I did this, because I was thinking those thoughts exactly as you just put it: This is the best thing Im ever going to do. This in the height of my creative life, my career, its never going to get any better thanBreaking Bad. And thats why I wanted to get right into something else, because I was still only 48, 49 years old, I didnt want to stop working. I knew in my heart if I took six months off, because everyone said I needed a vacation, then six months would go by, the world wouldve moved on and worst of all, I wouldve been paralyzed creatively. I would have said to myself, Okay, time to do something else now.What is it? Whats the next big thing? And then I would just freeze up, because I would say I would come up with an idea, thinking, Oh, thats fun. And then the editing portion of my brain, which Ive given too loud a voice over the years, would say: Its not to the level ofBreaking Bad.
The best thing I couldve done personally was to just jump headlong into a show that, admittedly, we didnt fully understand. Once we really got into it, we thought, Oh man, we got nothing here. And then luckily, we just kept banging at it until we figured it out, with the help of a lot of great writers. But the smartest thing I ever did was to keep moving.
And Breaking Bad the beauty of it is, some people are always going to loveBreaking Badmore. But I run into people every day now who sayBetter Call Saulis their favorite of the two. I love hearing that. I dont know where I fall personally on that scale, that continuum I try not to choose. I dont have children, but this is as close as Ill ever get to having children. I find it hard to choose between them. But Im just glad they both exist.
But, when you embarked on this, and you and Peter are just banging your heads against the wall asking what the show was, could you ever have imagined the idea that someone would come up to you and say they likeSaulbetter?
We both wanted it to not beAfterM*A*S*H. Thats about as high as we had set our sights: We wanted to not embarrass ourselves. We wanted our spinoff series to not take anything away from the original, to not leave a bad taste in the mouth of the fans of the original. Lets hope its moreFrasierthanAfterMASH. Our rational, realistic goals forBetter Call Saulwere simply that it wouldnt suck and it wouldntembarrass us. It didnt rise much higher than that, to be honest.
Its worked out a little bit better than that.
Im so glad. I never thought anyone would come up to me and say, I likeBetter Call Saulbetter thanBreaking Bad. If you had asked me before we started, Would that bother you if someone said that? First of all, I would have said, Thats never gonna happen. And yeah, it probably would bother me. It doesnt bother me a bit. It tickles me. I love it.