Jon Stewart has a week off from The Daily Show, but as he walks into a tiny conference room at the shows midtown Manhattan headquarters late on a Monday afternoon, its clear hes completely exhausted. He slumps in a chair and admits hes spent the entire day doing press for his new movie, Rosewater, and is beginning to grow hoarse. But hes determined to promote his passion project, and soon enough he perks up. Writing and directing Rosewater is unlike anything Stewart has attempted in his career. Its the true story of Maziar Bahari, an Iranian Newsweek reporter, who was interviewed by Daily Show correspondent Jason Jones in 2009. During the show, Bahari joked around that he was a spy; the Iranian government didnt see the humor and believed Bahari was working for the CIA. He was detained and tortured for 118 days by the police in Iran.
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After he was freed, Bahari came to New York and struck up a friendship with Stewart. He told me he was going to write a book and then turn it into a movie, says Stewart. He asked if Id be interested in helping. Having never done that before, I said, Of course!'
Did you ever worry this was too big a project to helm by yourself?
Lets see, it was 100 degrees out, it was Ramadan and we were at a working Jordanian prison. I would say that overwhelmed is one of the nicer things I felt. I told the crew over and over, I dont know what I dont know. Please raise your hand whenever you think Im taking us over a cliff.
I read you got help on the screenplay from J.J. Abrams.
It was more when I was done I would send it to people and say, So, youve made a movie. Is this a movie? I didnt feel like I could impose on them in a notes kind of way. I couldnt be like, Give me a way to end act one dynamically. It was more like, Read this and tell me if it reminds you of a movie, a one-act play or a sketch. I just needed to get confidence in its viability.
Had you ever written a screenplay before this?
I wrote one 15 years ago, but I dont think I ever finished it. Id certainly read that book about screenwriting, so that sort of counts as writing one.
Did you feel any guilt when you learned what Bahari went through because of comments made on The Daily Show?
We didnt actually know that at the time. He was arrested and went to prison, but this was in the context of thousands of others being caught in these sweeps. It wasnt so much that we thought it had something to do with us. It was more a question of, Was there something we can do? We contacted the family of another gentleman we had interviewed who had been arrested. The question was really, Should we continue to air these pieces? What would you like us to do? Their response was, We need to raise the profile. So we kept covering the election. We didnt think, Oh, my God, the Iranian government has cracked down on people who talked to The Daily Show. We knew there was a much wider crackdown going on.
Axis of Evil is as reductive as Death to America. Its all the same shit. Its ignorance-based.
In the film, you pull the curtain back on The Daily Show by showing how Jason Jones conducts the interview.Did you hesitate about revealing the shows secrets?
Maybe we should have, but I didnt even think about it. We dont consider it a state secret. Hopefully, people will get a little kick out of it.
Unlike most movies about these situations, you didnt portray the torturers as one-dimensional monsters.
We have a very sensationalized view of what constitutes torture. Theres this idea that its a ticking time bomb and someone yelling, Tell me what you know! and then you electrocute them and they finally tell you the bomb is in the school. But theres a banality, a bureaucracy, to it. And there are regimes that build these infrastructures for purposeless torture. They get confessions and broadcast them, but its for no reason. Its an exercise in existential depravity. The film is set in Iran, but its not unique to Iran. We put people in solitary all the time.
Solitary confinement is torture.
I dont think theres any question of that. We have this whole discussion of Well, as long as they arent being waterboarded, then its not torture. But removing stimulation from someone will drive them insane.
I know you shot the movie in Jordan, but some of the shots really looked like Iran.
It was.
How did you pull that off?
Uh...people on the set have certain connections with people who were maybe in the government there. So we were able to set something up and get that footage.
You happened to be in the Middle East at a time when much of the region started to go up in flames.
Was there a time when the region wasnt going up in flames? Did I miss something?
Fair point, but its been particularly bad the past year.
Yeah. Wed get notices under the door from the embassy saying, We urge all Americans not to gather in large groups or make yourself noticeable. I learned a lot over there. We are, to them, one large bloc of truck-driving cowboy yahoos that like to drop bombs on people. Its two-dimensional on both sides. You know, Axis of Evil is as reductive as Death to America. Its all the same shit. Its ignorance-based. What I will say is that the presence of evil is rare. Malevolence is a relatively rare occurrence. General ignorance is a widespread epidemic.
Are you tempted to make more movies after this?
Id like to do one where Maziar doesnt get out. I can just redo it, maybe like Eleanor Rigby where theres three different versions. I dont know. Its certainly not an alien art form to what Ive done before. Its an extension of telling stories, and I never rule anything out.
Youve been doing The Daily Show for the past fif
Fifty-three years. We started on radio and then moved it into the television era.
Do you still want to be doing this during the 2020 elections?
Oh, God. I dont look ahead like that. If I did, Id lose my mind. But theres obviously a shelf life for me. Theres only so many times people can see me doing the same shit without going, We want something fresh. Thats just a natural progression.
Would this show work on a major network?
Sure. I dont view networks being substantively different than cable, though I may have felt that 15 years ago. When people say, Hows he going to make a 12:30 show work at 11:30? youre like, Huh? Its not like you can have a masturbating bear at 12:30, but at 11:30 the bear has to quietly play with itself. Real estate has become less important. Whats important now is content.
Stephen Colbert is taking over for David Letterman did any part of you want that job?Nope. Not for a moment.
Why?
I had done a show like that 20 years ago. The people spoke. They felt that was something I should not be doing. They felt, in fact, that I should be locked out of the building. I also wasnt something that I felt necessarily comfortable doing. I dont think Im particularly suited for it.
How do you think Colbert will do taking over for Letterman?
Hes going to be tremendous.
Will it work as well with him out of character?
People forget that character is kind of an invention. Im accustomed to him out of character, so maybe I dont have as large a leap to go. I mean, the reason why the character worked is that underneath its informed by his interests and his abilities. I think that untethered from his character hell actually have more room and be able to really deliver in a way thats going to surprise people.
Theres a lot of competition and hosting a nightly hour-long show is a tough job.
Lets not be crazy. He has to talk to Amanda Seyfried and then listen to a great band. Its a pretty good gig. Also, hes perfectly suited for it. Hes got comedy chops, improv chops, song and dance chops, interview chops. He can elevate the form and bring oxygen to it.
Its amazing to think how long the talk show format has stuck around. Its not all that different than it was in the 1950s.
Its surprisingly relevant. What they are starting to learn is that the fuel of celebrity interviews has probably run a little dry. Thats why you are seeing a lot of, Well, what are we going to do with this guest? Thats because the actual sitting down and having a conversation with them. . .The promotion has become so encompassing that youre seeing these folks two or three times a year in 15different places.
Thats why its nice to see authors on your show, or at least not someone promoting a movie. I just enjoy that more.
We do as well. Thats why we try to have that one, and I think Stephen will continue doing a lot of that. I think that he will have a very eclectic show.
Whats the status of the Larry Wilmore show that youre producing in the 11:30 slot?
Its doing very well. We made some really good key hires. Were starting to build the structure of it, starting to get a sense of where Larry wants to take it and what we want with it. They are putting together a really nice team.
Will the show focus on current events?
Yeah. It will be more reflective of that and more agile with that than we are.
Did NBC approach you about hosting Meet the Press?
My guess is that they were casting as wide and as weird a net as they could. Im sure part of them was thinking, Why dont we just make it a variety show?
OReilly reminds me of everybody I grew up with. Hes not evil. Its a mistake not to engage with people.
Did you have any interest?
Not really. I felt like that was one of those situations where someone says, We like what you do. Why dont you come here and do something different? Maybe something you dont do as well, for us. It was strange, but I understand where it comes from. News and entertainment have melded, in a way. Its not an outlandish direction for that show, but I dont necessarily think thats the best direction for that.
You argued passionately with Bill OReilly about white privilege, but afterward you guys shook hands and smiled. Is there genuine affection between the two of you?
Its more sexual tension than anything else. He reminds me of everybody I grew up with. I have real affection for where I grew up, though I disagree with many of the people, and it helps me understand that I have to remain open to argument and contact. People say, Why do you have him on? Hes evil! But I dont think hes evil. He has a viewpoint. Its pretty rigid. Its dogma. I dont think its informed, but he argues it well. He has a sense of humor about it. Ive certainly had hotter and weirder Thanksgiving conversations with the family where I was kinda like, What are you? Genghis Khan? Its a mistake not to engage people.
Do you respect OReilly as a broadcaster?
I think hes a great broadcaster. I think he understands his audience, though I think its sometimes to the detriment of his audience.
Theres a lot of money in keeping certain segments of the population in a state of perpetual anger and fear.
But they do it in a much more mainstream way than right wing radio. If you listen to right wing radio you feel like theyre going to end every broadcast with, And so go out there tonight with a torch and a pitchfork and chase down these demons that are destroying this nation.
I think that Roger Ailes great gift was mainstreaming that nativist, paranoid streak in American politics and putting it on television in a much prettier, shinier box. What they did was change the inflection point. AM talk radio is, We are being robbed by communists and progressives that are destroying this country. They are a cancer and treasonous! Fox News does it like, [sweet, cheery voice] Are we being run by communists? Is it treason what theyre doing? Lets have the discussion.
Sean Hannity is clearly just a partisan Republican, but its not that simple with OReilly.
Hes a populist with a nativist bent. Theres that sort of grand nostalgia that a certain type of populist has for the country that used to exist in this magical state, but thats not actually real. He has this vision of Levittown and how it made him, but there was a bar of entry to that. The fact his family could get that house and build wealth there is a big deal.
When people scream I Want My Country Back! at Tea Party rallies, I cant help but think many of them really mean, I want my youth back. I want it to be 1955 again. Its almost like theyre blaming Obama for the fact the world has changed a lot since they were kids.
I dont disagree. They also blame Clinton and anybody who isnt a Republican. Thats because their vision of the country is so simplistic. You want to say to them, Yeah, things did seem nicer when you were eight.
Right, as if the 1950s was nothing but stickball and sock hops.
What they forget is that in the 1950s we had a 25 percent poverty rate. We had black servicemen coming back who couldnt get jobs and couldnt live in certain places because of their skin. You cannot divorce the realities of your idyllic Mayberry childhood from that type of injustice, but they do.
Do you think OReilly believes everything he says, or does he sometimes justsay what he thinks his viewers want to hear?
I think he comes by his views honestly. I cant say I find him to be disingenuous. I just think that, in general, the right has moved so far out in that direction that OReilly appears to be almost a Kennedy Democrat by this point. Sean Hannity is probably the most loathsome dude over there. Thats just pure cynicism, and its horrible. Everything is presented in as devious a manner as it could be possibly be presented.
Would you want to invite Hannity onto your show and engage with him?
Not really. Thats probably a shortcoming, but I have no interest in that. I probably should. It would be interesting, I guess.
After all these years of mocking Fox News, what have you concluded about what makes it so popular?
They have a real sense of persecution. Ive just figured that out recently. Their feeling of persecution is real. They truly feel the loss of absolute power is the same as persecution. Like, watch them do their War on Christmas stuff. Its real, man. Theres no bullshit. They are in the middle of Rockefeller Center talking about They wont let us put up a Christmas tree! Meanwhile, theyre next to a 60-foot Christmas tree in a place with so much Christmas stuff up it looks like Santas balls just exploded.
And they crush everyone else on cable news in the ratings.
Thats because theyre dealing with a very homogenous block of viewers. Ailes is a very good television producer. Hes put together a network with a clear-cut point of view. But the audience on the left for something like that would be much more fractured, and not everyone would be as animated by that sense of grievance. Its so interesting to me how the right have a call to victim going, that they are the true victims of all these other groups claiming to be victims.
They argue that the real victims of injustice are white Christian males.
Thats right. That, to them, is the only group that is a victim. In their minds, Al Sharpton has done more damage to the black community than Jim Crow. Jim Crow is over! Al Sharpton is still going!
How much of the obsessive hatred of Obama do you think is due to his race?
Oh, I dont know. They had a pretty good obsessive hatred going for Clinton in the 1990s. I think theres a general sense thats run through politics for a long time, a nativist streak that considers the Democrats an arm of the communist party and alien to American values. To them, Obama is the latest iteration of that. But if you trace it back, it was as virulent in other times as it is now with him. People forget, but people would go on the floor of congress and accuse Clinton of having peopled killed and raped.
In some ways, I think maybe there is a heightened resentment with this idea of, Why are we event talking about race? The country elected a black president. We are even.
Since you took over The Daily Show, in 1999, public discourse in this country has somehow gotten even worse. Is it ever just too much for you?
Its never too much to bear, but its annoying as fuck. The hope is that it gets to a certain point where its such a cartoon that it corrects itself. I still believe in a sort of pendulum swing, that this will embarrass us and there will be a course correction. Fox was one course correction, and hopefully the antithesis of that will rear its head and course-correct in another way.
Some critics have attacked you for creating what they see as a false equivalency, saying that both sides are equally to blame.
I dont think weve ever said that. Both political parties are corrupted by money. I dont think thats a false equivalence. The Republicans have been incredibly obstructionist, but the Democrats have been bureaucratic and incompetent. Thats not a false equivalency. Its just pointing out the shortcomings on both sides. But there is a real reluctance on the left to allow an attack any criticism is seen as a betrayal. And I reject that. I reject it in a way that you can criticize this country and still love it. You can criticize this country and still think there are things it can do better.
Lorne Michaels has said that Democrats are always more offended when they are spoofed on SNL than Republicans.
Thats probably right. When Nancy Pelosi came on the show, we were talking about corruption and money in politics. She said it was only a problem for Republicans. I asked about the Democrats and she said, Nah, the money doesnt corrupt us. Oh, I guess the money you get from Wall Street and energy companies doesnt corrupt you. When I point those things out, the left goes, Why are you doing that? Youre going to blow the election for everybody!
Who is your dream guest for The Daily Show?
Ive had Springsteen, so Im pretty much OK.
I remember sitting near you at MSG a few years ago when he did The River straight through. It definitely looked like you were enjoying yourself.
That was an incredible night. My wife and I brought my son. Id forgotten how many barn-burners are on that album. When it began and it was really loud, my son who was just three or four just started wailing. She had to take him home, so I wound up sitting there all night watching it by myself. But it was a great night. He still manages to fucking bring it. Its crazy.
Whats your favorite Springsteen song?
It depends. When I was younger, it was Blinded by the Light.Then you get older and start developing yearnings and its Darkness on the Edge of Town or Racing in the Street or Jungleland. Now its probably Glory Days. No, Id say Im in a little more of a Lost in the Flood zone. Im probably bouncing between that and The Rising and Land of Hope and Dreams. Im stuck between optimism and stagnation.